Curse

The Josip · Jul 08, 2010, 01:02 AM // 01:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lanier

Quoted for the truth

Yea, it's the kind of "truth" that creatures of darkness like. The truth that has no basis in reality.

What is "truth" in his post you quoted?

* That OP didnt state why physical damage should not be stronger?
OP stated that in thread subject already. It's not his problem people have limited comprehension abilities. Balance. That's why. Means nothing to those who don't like it though.

* That GW was designed that warriors are so much better in damage than elementalists and other casters?
False. GW was designed around PvP basis, where much of warriors damage is nullified by block/evade, hexes, conditions. Today, HM shifted balance, AoE scatter too, various buffs made melee even stronger, consumables even more stronger, and pve skills help warriors more than casters. New classes increased the gap as well.
The gap that exists today is not a result of intended game design. It's a byproduct of some other tweaks.

* "Everyone has had a role for past 5 years"
False. Mesmers had no role for years until now. Anything they could do, someone else could do better. I'm talking about PvE of course, this is PvE thread.

* "OP is complaining he can't do everything"
Quoted for truth? What truth? Where did I complain I can't do everything? The thread is about physical damage being overpowered. Lowering this kind of damage would balance the game. What does this have to do with my mesmer? Did I say my mesmer needs to be as good in melee as A/D? Where? Did I say mesmer needs buff? Where? Truth. Heh.

* "Casters shouldn't do a warriors job equally to a warrior."
But warrior can do casters job? In official description of professions, it says elementalists can do most damage in a single strike. They can't, melee can. Truth? Hah.

* He says "Everyone has a specific role." And warriors role is dealing damage. Casters should all be support. So where's specific role if they are all support? Where's specific role of eles if they are not allowed to do balanced damage with different kind/style of damage? Where's balanced role if eles can either be more powerful heal prots than a monk, or a pitiful damage dealer when compared to a warrior? If there's different kind of balanced support, there can be different kinds of balanced damage dealing. It's so obvious and so simple. That's why there are damage types in the game, and that's why some creatures are more vulnerable to specific types of damage. To add flavor. Instead there would be "damage" and that's it. But it's meant for the player to calculate what works better and where. That's game design. It's not like warriors were designed as pure damage dealers. They have entire line for support. They also have disruption skills.

* "The game shouldn't change because someone wants a profession to be something it isn't"
Truth? Is it? The game is changing all the time when someone who can influence change wants a profession to be something it isn't. When someone wants eles to be better heal prots than monks, there's a change. When someone wants mesmers to be more nukers (CoP prenerf) because he's out of ideas how to fast-fix mesmers - game changes with profession role. When someone sees people complain about assassins being fragile but powerful damage dealers, they are changed into immortals and game changes.

And so time draws nigh when creatures of darkness and their "truths" will perish. Amen.

NerfHerder · Jul 08, 2010, 01:24 AM // 01:24

Just for giggles, I made my mesmer with the Me/D build and ran out to master of damage. I did around 46 damage a second and had trouble maintaining energy. Then I took an energy surge build and did 41 damage per second. With out heros, not much of a difference. I know its not a really fair test, but it just goes to show what can be done for consistantly.

What was that about physicals being overpowered?

Sure I could take heros to bond me and make me more powerful, but I can also take Discord, or 2 SF nukers and SoS hero. So same diff, I dont see what all the fuss is about.

Jeydra · Jul 08, 2010, 01:26 AM // 01:26

I shouldn't get involved in this argument again, but ...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lanier

Also, blind/block/anti-melee hexes/weakness/snares are pretty common in the game. Typically, it is the caster who removes these conditions or hexes from the physical.

Blind / block / antimelee hexes / weakness / snares can all be removed by the appropriate skill. Yes it is the caster who removes these conditions and hexes from the physical. In this the caster supports physical damage. However, caster damage can generally not be buffed. There are a few precious skills that can do it, but there are so few: By Ural's Hammer (self-buff), Intensity (self-buff, difficult to upkeep), EBSoH, Stolen Speed, and ... ?

Quote:

Originally Posted by NerfHarder

Anet is well aware of the /D + physicals phenomenon. It sounds like they are already working on it.

But if physicals are so powerful on thier own how come I dont see....

"Warrior LF 7 more physicals to go!"

SC and team builds consisting of all physicals?

If ER is so powerful how come I generally never see anyone going "GLF ER Ele to go!"?

Also see this post: http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...8&postcount=37

Can you beat those times with a caster primary?

Quote:

Originally Posted by NerfHarder

Me/E_Panic_Mesmer
Me/E_PvE_Domination_Mesmer
Me/any_PvE_Illusion_Mesmer
Me/any_Keystone_Mesmer

That should get you started.

You do realize that all four of those builds are pretty bad -

Panic is a good skill, but it is mainly a defensive one. In teams including heroes / henchmen, you should not use it as a player because the player, with access to PvE skills, should always take an offensive role. In teams with mainly players, you should not take Panic either because you simply roll through the area with big damage.

The second build is better, but still weak. VoR is pretty bad because it's a reactive hex. So is Empathy. Energy Surge does "solid AoE damage", or so the page claims, but then the page author obviously hasn't seen Scythe-users hitting for 100s or above on autoattacks. Cry of Pain has been nerfed, and although it's still strong it's not what it used to be.

The third build is terrible. Falls into the same category as the first, except defensively it's outdone by Aegis, and offensively it's outdone by Cry of Pain. Clumsiness and Wandering Eye are both reactive hexes, and reactive hexes aren't very good in PvE.

The fourth build is also terrible. Falls into the same category as the first, low damage, questionable defensive value, blah blah blah.

If you use any of these four builds, it is not because they are good or even because they are the best options available to you, but because it's something you want to do for fun. If you use variants of those builds on heroes, it's because you've run out of other, superior options. Mesmers are weak in PvE. Sad fact.

Anyway best player Mesmer build in PvE would probably go along these lines:

"You Move Like A Dwarf!" | "Finish Him!" | Auspicious Incantation | Cry of Pain | Assassin's Promise | Ebon Vanguard Assassin Support | Arcane Echo | Optional

Quote:

Originally Posted by Still Number One

The thing the OP has failed to explain is why Physical damage should not be stronger than caster damage. Guildwars isn't a tank and spank game where the melee is used for nothing but soaking up damage and casters are used to blow things up. The game is designed for warriors to be the main source of DPS for the team, and casters to excel in support, disruption, and movement control roles.

The thing everyone else has failed to explain is why physical damage should be stronger than caster damage. Lol. This matter always comes about when someone claims they can read the developer's mind to the point that they know what the game was "supposed" to be like, and make catch-all statements like "Guildwars isn't a tank and spank game". Where's your proof? Don't say that "but that's the way Guildwars has been since the beginning; Warriors have always been the damage-dealing class". Maybe, but it doesn't exclude the possibility that the developers didn't intend Warriors to be the damage-dealing class, but it accidentally happened.

Anyway I can show you proof why physical damage should not be stronger than caster damage. See:

http://www.guildwars.com/gameplay/pr.../elementalist/

'With magic derived from the very foundations of nature itself, Elementalists can inflict more damage in a single strike than any other profession.'

Or so they're supposed to be able to. Unfortunately, they can't.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xiaquin

Where do you get off saying that a mesmer should be running damage-only? A primary mesmer playing with its own skill set is support. Period. It shuts down, disrupts and spreads hexes that pressure the enemy. It doesn't kill things, it makes it impossible for the things to do their job well. It is the last profession you take at face value if you want to steamroll. Before you go any further, please explain where you get the idea that this profession should also be spanking enemies like a Sin, on top of its versatile utility in a party.

They should, because damage is what wins PvE. You cannot clear areas without dealing damage. The only other requirement in addition to dealing damage is staying alive. Everything else is luxury.

Now if Mesmer support were a great asset in staying alive, they wouldn't be so bad a class. Unfortunately, it isn't the case. Interrupts, Panic, shutdown, et cetera - they are all either not needed or outdone by pure heals and damage absorption. The same reasoning applies to why Earth Elementalists are generally bad. The only groups who'd use Earth Elementalists are those where people played for fun and didn't care how efficiently they do something.

And here's the proof of the pudding. You have three hero slots. Do you ever dedicate one of those hero slots to a Mesmer? When do you use a Mesmer anyway? I'll tell you my experience - the Mesmer hero, although a useful one, is only ever used when I can't use a MM (or if it's required, e.g. Melonni is required for Nundu Bay).

EDIT: @Above - I can bring an E/W Sword build against the MoD, without any heroes, and top 120 DPS. What does that say about Mesmer damage, hm?

Lanier · Jul 08, 2010, 01:43 AM // 01:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Josip

Yea, it's the kind of "truth" that creatures of darkness like. The truth that has no basis in reality.

What is "truth" in his post you quoted?

* That OP didnt state why physical damage should not be stronger?
OP stated that in thread subject already. It's not his problem people have limited comprehension abilities. Balance. That's why. Means nothing to those who don't like it though.

* That GW was designed that warriors are so much better in damage than elementalists and other casters?
False. GW was designed around PvP basis, where much of warriors damage is nullified by block/evade, hexes, conditions. Today, HM shifted balance, AoE scatter too, various buffs made melee even stronger, consumables even more stronger, and pve skills help warriors more than casters. New classes increased the gap as well.
The gap that exists today is not a result of intended game design. It's a byproduct of some other tweaks.

* "Everyone has had a role for past 5 years"
False. Mesmers had no role for years until now. Anything they could do, someone else could do better. I'm talking about PvE of course, this is PvE thread.

* "OP is complaining he can't do everything"
Quoted for truth? What truth? Where did I complain I can't do everything? The thread is about physical damage being overpowered. Lowering this kind of damage would balance the game. What does this have to do with my mesmer? Did I say my mesmer needs to be as good in melee as A/D? Where? Did I say mesmer needs buff? Where? Truth. Heh.

* "Casters shouldn't do a warriors job equally to a warrior."
But warrior can do casters job? In official description of professions, it says elementalists can do most damage in a single strike. They can't, melee can. Truth? Hah.

* He says "Everyone has a specific role." And warriors role is dealing damage. Casters should all be support. So where's specific role if they are all support? Where's specific role of eles if they are not allowed to do balanced damage with different kind/style of damage? Where's balanced role if eles can either be more powerful heal prots than a monk, or a pitiful damage dealer when compared to a warrior? If there's different kind of balanced support, there can be different kinds of balanced damage dealing. It's so obvious and so simple. That's why there are damage types in the game, and that's why some creatures are more vulnerable to specific types of damage. To add flavor. Instead there would be "damage" and that's it. But it's meant for the player to calculate what works better and where. That's game design. It's not like warriors were designed as pure damage dealers. They have entire line for support. They also have disruption skills.

* "The game shouldn't change because someone wants a profession to be something it isn't"
Truth? Is it? The game is changing all the time when someone who can influence change wants a profession to be something it isn't. When someone wants eles to be better heal prots than monks, there's a change. When someone wants mesmers to be more nukers (CoP prenerf) because he's out of ideas how to fast-fix mesmers - game changes with profession role. When someone sees people complain about assassins being fragile but powerful damage dealers, they are changed into immortals and game changes.

And so time draws nigh when creatures of darkness and their "truths" will perish. Amen.

Lolwut? Creatures of darkness? Uh... ok then. anyway...

The fact is that not every class should have the same strengths. That would take away all differentiation among professions., which is a bad thing. You can dispute this fact all you want but that won't make it any less true. While balance is good, there are other ways to balance that don't involve turning all classes into direct damage classes.

Mesmer have always been the best class at disruption or interruption, so you can't say that mesmers didn't have their strength.

I think just about everyone agrees that eles need a buff to their armor penetration abilities. That does mean they need their damage buffed 5x as the title to this thread suggests.

I'm not quite sure what's up with all this " time draws nigh" and "creatures of darkness" talk.

Edit: jeydre, that build of yours is pretty leet with those 4 pve skills. Wish I could do that.

Anyway, I am trying to say that I acknowledge that masters are generally weaker offensive than physical with master buffs. I don't see anything wrong with this though.

moriz · Jul 08, 2010, 01:48 AM // 01:48

Quote:

I'm not quite sure what's up with all this " time draws nigh" and "creatures of darkness" talk.

basically, he believes we are evil beings and he's the lone white knight that's gonna slay us all.

The Josip · Jul 08, 2010, 01:57 AM // 01:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by NerfHerder

Just for giggles, I made my mesmer with the Me/D build and ran out to master of damage. I did around 46 damage a second and had trouble maintaining energy. Then I took an energy surge build and did 41 damage per second. With out heros, not much of a difference. I know its not a really fair test, but it just goes to show what can be done for consistantly.

What was that about physicals being overpowered?

Sure I could take heros to bond me and make me more powerful, but I can also take Discord, or 2 SF nukers and SoS hero. So same diff, I dont see what all the fuss is about.

I'm glad you wrote this.

My hero has Discord and the other has SoS. You're mistaken when you think that hero support for melee consists of 8 skills on each hero used to buff melee to do decent damage.

Your tests on Isle of Nameless are also so flawed. This is obvious to anyone with decent skill who played melee in this game but I will not waste time explaining.

But I am glad you wrote this, because I see with what incompetence I have to struggle and wrestle with here.

The Gods themselves would contend in vain.

As was said - those who have eyes see and those who dunnot don't see. And as I am no missionary but a sadist, I'll let you enjoy your blindness and rejoice in it while you can.

Cuilan · Jul 08, 2010, 01:58 AM // 01:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

If ER is so powerful how come I generally never see anyone going "GLF ER Ele to go!"?

Because you're not paying attention and many groups are open to one even if they're wording a healer as monk.

Jeydra is apparently trying to trap people into posting that mesmers are strong in PvE, which I'd say they now are.

belshazaarswrath · Jul 08, 2010, 02:03 AM // 02:03

Well this has degenerated eh? We're talking about Catnarok now?

.

Del · Jul 08, 2010, 02:12 AM // 02:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

basically, he believes we are evil beings and he's the lone white knight that's gonna slay us all.

Yup, the Josip's gonna slay us with his righteous fury.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Josip

I'm glad you wrote this.

My hero has Discord and the other has SoS. You're mistaken when you think that hero support for melee consists of 8 skills on each hero used to buff melee to do decent damage.

Your tests on Isle of Nameless are also so flawed. This is obvious to anyone with decent skill who played melee in this game but I will not waste time explaining.

But I am glad you wrote this, because I see with what incompetence I have to struggle and wrestle with here.

The Gods themselves would contend in vain.

As was said - those who have eyes see and those who dunnot don't see. And as I am no missionary but a sadist, I'll let you enjoy your blindness and rejoice in it while you can.

The master of damage is as low armored as you'll find in general pve, so from that damage, it would only get wrse, and of course you won't bother explaining, because you're just talking out of your ass. But i have to hand it to you, you're the most creative troll on these here forums.

Jeydra · Jul 08, 2010, 02:13 AM // 02:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lanier

Edit: jeydre, that build of yours is pretty leet with those 4 pve skills. Wish I could do that.

Anyway, I am trying to say that I acknowledge that masters are generally weaker offensive than physical with master buffs. I don't see anything wrong with this though.

Yes - that's why something along those lines. I don't know the specifics.

I suppose it's up to you to decide whether or not physical damage being significantly (it's certainly not 5x; it's closer to 2-3x) stronger than caster damage is balanced. Just don't pretend that it's not the case.

Xiaquin · Jul 08, 2010, 02:52 AM // 02:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Josip

Your tests on Isle of Nameless are also so flawed. This is obvious to anyone with decent skill who played melee in this game but I will not waste time explaining.

Oh, allow me. Melee relies on PvE skills (titles) to buff their damage. That isn't a flaw itself, everyone has R12 allegiance and should therefore take a scythe. Oh, don't forget Asuran Scan, too.

But what about Intensi...oh. Never mind.

R_Frost · Jul 08, 2010, 02:56 AM // 02:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Josip

I've been playing lately with Me/D (!) because even as melee mesmer I kill faster than as caster mesmer, even after the mesmer buff update. I mean, come on, something is wrong here. My (buffed) melee mesmer can kill monsters in HM in two hits. Two hits. Let me do that with a spell!

after re-reading this thread there some things that just have to be asked.

1. whats your complete Me/D build that you insist, without proof, can 2 hit kill HM enemy.
2. whats your party makeup and builds of Hero's.
3. are you using any type of consumables
4. whats the stats on your equipment, weapon and armor. yes i know base armor is 60 for a mesmer but what insignias and runes are being used.

with the history of this game you just cant come into a fansite forum and complain how imbalanced things are without proof and expect change. after seeing how Anet handles the game the last 5 years, just making a statement like your opening post will get nowhere other then the type of replies this thread has received so far. if your using consumables and a skill bar with the max of 3 PvE skills and your party is built to support you in a way that you do more damage because of it, then your arguement or statement that physicals are over powered is a failure. all you have done is come up with a build that abuses 2 weaknesses of GuildWars, static mobs that spawn the same all the time with the same skill bars. with all the availible skills in the game its not hard to come up with builds that abuse the game in way Anet never intended or expected to happen.

Still Number One · Jul 08, 2010, 03:07 AM // 03:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Josip

* That OP didnt state why physical damage should not be stronger?
OP stated that in thread subject already. It's not his problem people have limited comprehension abilities. Balance. That's why. Means nothing to those who don't like it though.

* That GW was designed that warriors are so much better in damage than elementalists and other casters?
False. GW was designed around PvP basis, where much of warriors damage is nullified by block/evade, hexes, conditions. Today, HM shifted balance, AoE scatter too, various buffs made melee even stronger, consumables even more stronger, and pve skills help warriors more than casters. New classes increased the gap as well.
The gap that exists today is not a result of intended game design. It's a byproduct of some other tweaks.

* "Everyone has had a role for past 5 years"
False. Mesmers had no role for years until now. Anything they could do, someone else could do better. I'm talking about PvE of course, this is PvE thread.

* "OP is complaining he can't do everything"
Quoted for truth? What truth? Where did I complain I can't do everything? The thread is about physical damage being overpowered. Lowering this kind of damage would balance the game. What does this have to do with my mesmer? Did I say my mesmer needs to be as good in melee as A/D? Where? Did I say mesmer needs buff? Where? Truth. Heh.

* "Casters shouldn't do a warriors job equally to a warrior."
But warrior can do casters job? In official description of professions, it says elementalists can do most damage in a single strike. They can't, melee can. Truth? Hah.

* He says "Everyone has a specific role." And warriors role is dealing damage. Casters should all be support. So where's specific role if they are all support? Where's specific role of eles if they are not allowed to do balanced damage with different kind/style of damage? Where's balanced role if eles can either be more powerful heal prots than a monk, or a pitiful damage dealer when compared to a warrior? If there's different kind of balanced support, there can be different kinds of balanced damage dealing. It's so obvious and so simple. That's why there are damage types in the game, and that's why some creatures are more vulnerable to specific types of damage. To add flavor. Instead there would be "damage" and that's it. But it's meant for the player to calculate what works better and where. That's game design. It's not like warriors were designed as pure damage dealers. They have entire line for support. They also have disruption skills.

* "The game shouldn't change because someone wants a profession to be something it isn't"
Truth? Is it? The game is changing all the time when someone who can influence change wants a profession to be something it isn't. When someone wants eles to be better heal prots than monks, there's a change. When someone wants mesmers to be more nukers (CoP prenerf) because he's out of ideas how to fast-fix mesmers - game changes with profession role. When someone sees people complain about assassins being fragile but powerful damage dealers, they are changed into immortals and game changes.

1. Making every class equal in filling every role in the game does not equal balance. Balance would be taking all playstyles and making them feasible. Basically, it isn't about allowing a mesmer to do everything, but for making the things it can do useful.

2. Yes Guild Wars was designed around PvP, and in PvP Warriors are the best source of constant DPS, and mesmers are used for e-denial and shutdown.

3. Again, mesmers have always had a role. Its called E-denial and shutdown. Just because people didn't use them in PvE didn't mean they didn't have a role. It just means no one valued its role as highly as others. In PvP the mesmer was always used and always very effective.

4. You want melee damage toned down so that caster damage is equal to it, thus allowing your character to be equal to the warrior in DPS. It doesn't matter how the damage is dealt, the fact is you want the role of a damage dealer on a class who doesn't fit that role. Therefore you are complaining about not being able to do something as well as another class, despite that something being that classes specialty and not yours.

5. Warriors can't do a casters job nearly as well as the classes that are intended for that class. A warrior has movement control through KD's, but can never control movement as efficiently as a water ele can. A warrior can not shutdown as easily as a ranger or a mesmer can. A warrior can not heal or prot like a monk can. A warrior can not chain hexes like a Necromancer can. And so on. Every class has something it excels at. The fact that not every class is equal in every role makes every class unique. And the example you used is a bad one considering an Ele can do more damage in a single strike than a warrior can. Rodgorts and Lightning Orb are two skills that would count as a single strike and do more damage than pretty much all warrior single strikes Besides maybe Eviscerate because of the Deep Wound. The warriors specialty comes from constant DPS which an ele can't match.

6. Everyone does have a specific role and there are many roles under the "Category" of support. A water ele can control movement by use of snares. An Air ele can assist on spikes with high damage armor penetration skills like Lightning orb and blind warriors greatly decreasing their DPS. A fire ele can apply constant support damage through use of burning and AoE attacks. An Earth ele can assist by putting up Wards to slow characters or cause mass blocking, or can cause weakness, KD, and various other things. Mesmers can disrupt casters by use of interrupts, skills like diversion, and they can disrupt melee with skills like ineptitude and clumsiness. They have e-denial capabilities with skills like E-surge, E-burn, and others. There is no reason for me to go on because anyone with some knowledge of the game can figure out which professions fit what niche the best.

7. No that is definitely not how skill changes work. The game is changed when someone with a very good grasp of how the game works can prove how certain skills are too powerful and causing problems within the game, and going into great detail about why the current state is negative for the game, and propose a change with a lot of long thought out detail on how to appropriately change the skill and how the game will react to the change of the skill. 9 out of 10 times, A.net completely ignores even the best suggestions and just does what they feel like doing, or what they think will make the majority happy and continue playing the game and buying new products they offer. They hardly ever listen to anyone's suggestion and if they do, it is because that person has convinced them that without a reasonable doubt that the change will have a positive impact on game play.

Jeydra · Jul 08, 2010, 03:25 AM // 03:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Still Number One

6. Everyone does have a specific role and there are many roles under the "Category" of support. A water ele can control movement by use of snares. An Air ele can assist on spikes with high damage armor penetration skills like Lightning orb and blind warriors greatly decreasing their DPS. A fire ele can apply constant support damage through use of burning and AoE attacks. An Earth ele can assist by putting up Wards to slow characters or cause mass blocking, or can cause weakness, KD, and various other things. Mesmers can disrupt casters by use of interrupts, skills like diversion, and they can disrupt melee with skills like ineptitude and clumsiness. They have e-denial capabilities with skills like E-surge, E-burn, and others. There is no reason for me to go on because anyone with some knowledge of the game can figure out which professions fit what niche the best.

You do realize that support is largely useless in PvE yes? In that then, by your own argument Mesmers aren't balanced (or Elementalists, for that matter).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Still Number One

And the example you used is a bad one considering an Ele can do more damage in a single strike than a warrior can. Rodgorts and Lightning Orb are two skills that would count as a single strike and do more damage than pretty much all warrior single strikes Besides maybe Eviscerate because of the Deep Wound. The warriors specialty comes from constant DPS which an ele can't match.

Completely wrong. You need to get your facts right. There is absolutely no way that an Elementalist can hit more damage in a single strike than a Warrior can in HM. An Elementalist might hit 250++ at most. Compare this post:

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...9&postcount=93

Even if you argue that it was holy damage vs. undead and divide by two, the Assassin still did more damage in a single strike. Sure, that was done by an Assassin, but do you want me to show you a screenshot where a Warrior hits 500 damage x2 with Sun and Moon Slash?

Ugh · Jul 08, 2010, 03:37 AM // 03:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

However, caster damage can generally not be buffed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Josip

* That OP didnt state why physical damage should not be stronger? OP stated that in thread subject already. It's not his problem people have limited comprehension abilities. Balance. That's why. Means nothing to those who don't like it though.

Giving casters damage of melees with the support they already have is the opposite of balance.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

If ER is so powerful how come I generally never see anyone going "GLF ER Ele to go!"?

Because you don't go in ToA enough. Outside of ToA they're fairly rare, but still powerful (except in areas with heavy enchant removal, but those are fairly rare, too).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Can you beat those times with a caster primary?

Note that there is one physical and 7 casters. This just shows that casters' supporting abilities are overpowered.

Physicals are just vessels through which casters' overpoweredness flows. Though physicals still do have OP stuff like scythes and daggers, which will/should be nerfed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

The thing everyone else has failed to explain is why physical damage should be stronger than caster damage. Lol.

Because having all the damage and supporting ability in casters would make physicals useless.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

'With magic derived from the very foundations of nature itself, Elementalists can inflict more damage in a single strike than any other profession.'

Or so they're supposed to be able to. Unfortunately, they can't.

It also says rangers can use nature rituals to hinder enemies, but they all hurt the team more than the enemy. It also says they can 'draw on the power of the wilderness to heal and assist allies in battle,' but a wilderness survival ranger won't be assisting anyone except the mobs. It also says they get the most out of ranged weapons, but bows suck. It also says rangers are called upon to pull targets, which is just loltarded.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

They should, because damage is what wins PvE. You cannot clear areas without dealing damage. The only other requirement in addition to dealing damage is staying alive. Everything else is luxury.

Interrupting a 200 damage nuke is equal to healing for 200 damage times however many party members would've been hit. Shutting down a monk is equal to doing however much damage that monk would've healed for.

Mesmers heal and deal damage indirectly.

Also, if mesmers get another buff before rangers get one, I'll burn down Anet's HQ.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

The same reasoning applies to why Earth Elementalists are generally bad.

Earth eles are commonly used for warding.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

And here's the proof of the pudding. You have three hero slots. Do you ever dedicate one of those hero slots to a Mesmer?

Necros being OP doesn't mean mesmers suck; it means necros are OP.

Also, when's the last time you used a ranger hero?

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Quote:

Originally Posted by The Josip

* That GW was designed that warriors are so much better in damage than elementalists and other casters?
False. GW was designed around PvP basis, where much of warriors damage is nullified by block/evade, hexes, conditions. Today, HM shifted balance, AoE scatter too, various buffs made melee even stronger, consumables even more stronger, and pve skills help warriors more than casters. New classes increased the gap as well.
The gap that exists today is not a result of intended game design. It's a byproduct of some other tweaks.

Okay, buff eles. I'm pretty sure almost everyone on this forum agrees eles could use a damage buff.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Josip

* "Everyone has had a role for past 5 years"
False. Mesmers had no role for years until now. Anything they could do, someone else could do better. I'm talking about PvE of course, this is PvE thread.

Since they have a role now, what the hell is this thread for? Not everything is meant for damage.

Also, rangers and dervs still don't have a role. Just sayin'.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Josip

* "Casters shouldn't do a warriors job equally to a warrior."
But warrior can do casters job? In official description of professions, it says elementalists can do most damage in a single strike. They can't, melee can. Truth? Hah.

See second response up.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Josip

Where's specific role of eles if they are not allowed to do balanced damage with different kind/style of damage? Where's balanced role if eles can either be more powerful heal prots than a monk, or a pitiful damage dealer when compared to a warrior?

So, this thread was originally about casters being underpowered, people pointed out why you were wrong, and now you're saying, "b-but... what about eles!?" since they're the only caster class that needs a buff, and you're still acting like you've been right all along?

If this thread was only supposed to be about eles, you should have made that clear in the OP and title. There would be quite a bit less arguing if you had.

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Misc. Notes:
1. Sorry for all the random ranger comments. Somebody's gotta make 'em.
2. @Josip Your avatar always made me think you were a girl.

3. Why do you guys want to turn mesmers into a brainless nuking class? If you really like mesmers, you should be happy that they're useful and their unique playstyle hasn't been forsaken.

Still Number One · Jul 08, 2010, 03:38 AM // 03:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

You do realize that support is largely useless in PvE yes? In that then, by your own argument Mesmers aren't balanced (or Elementalists, for that matter).

Completely wrong. You need to get your facts right. There is absolutely no way that an Elementalist can hit more damage in a single strike than a Warrior can in HM. An Elementalist might hit 250++ at most. Compare this post:

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...9&postcount=93

Sure, that was done by an Assassin, but do you want me to show you a screenshot where a Warrior hits 500 damage x2 with Sun and Moon Slash?

I get along just fine in PvE with mesmers and eles especially after the update. But I never said the game was in balance anyways, just what balance actually was. The game has never been in balance. A.net has a very bad track record on balancing. I've always been extremely critical on their ability to properly balance this game. Their performance has been absolutely terrible to put it bluntly.

Considering the OP's sentence that I was basing my point on was a quote about a certain class by the developers, I was under the assumption that the quote was made prior to prophecies as a description for the classes and what they would be able to do. In that time there wasn't Hard mode, and there weren't assassins, so I was basing my point off skills available then and classes available then. If the quote was from a more recent time when Hard mode was introduced, then yes I completely agree with you. If my assumption was correct and it was from prophecies days, then no I think my point still stands.

Jeydra · Jul 08, 2010, 04:05 AM // 04:05

Ugh.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ugh

Note that there is one physical and 7 casters. This just shows that casters' supporting abilities are overpowered.

Physicals are just vessels through which casters' overpoweredness flows.

If you say so. Nerf the supporting abilities if you think that's best - Asuran Scan, Strength of Honour, For Great Justice, et cetera. If you do that you narrow the gap between physical damage and caster damage. Fair enough. You address the OP's concern as well.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ugh

It also says rangers can use nature rituals to hinder enemies, but they all hurt the team more than the enemy. It also says they can 'draw on the power of the wilderness to heal and assist allies in battle,' but a wilderness survival ranger won't be assisting anyone except the mobs. It also says they get the most out of ranged weapons, but bows suck. It also says rangers are called upon to pull targets, which is just loltarded.

And your point is? That ANet is loltarded? Whether ANet is loltarded or not doesn't change the discussion at hand because the manuscripts are still the closest we have to seeing how the game was intended to be.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ugh

Interrupting a 200 damage nuke is equal to healing for 200 damage times however many party members would've been hit. Shutting down a monk is equal to doing however much damage that monk would've healed for.

Mesmers heal and deal damage indirectly.

For the first - no it's not. An interrupted 200 damage nuke makes a world of difference only if it's what keeps you from wiping. If you do not wipe regardless of whether the 200 damage nuke hits, then the interrupt does essentially nothing. And let me say that there are a lot of methods to keep the 200 damage nuke from wiping your party, without relying on interrupts. In fact interrupts are rather fragile a form of party defense; you can't keep all the Rodgort's Invocations away at the same time.

For the other - there are so many more powerful ways to shut down a Monk than relying on a Mesmer. The simplest and most obvious way is to overload the Monk with damage. Remember, by using a Mesmer and forgoing straight damage your damage output will necessarily be less. If you can hit the Monk for 300 damage a strike, you do not need the so-called "shutdown" that a Mesmer provides. Other alternatives - use skills that not only shut down the Monk, but also deal damage. Skills like "You Move Like A Dwarf!" or Great Dwarf Weapon can completely shut down a Monk and deal damage with it.

You can argue that Mesmers heal and deal damage indirectly, but you cannot argue that they are anywhere near comparable to other options (outside of SCs, at least). So long as they are inferior then, they are weak.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ugh

Necros being OP doesn't mean mesmers suck; it means necros are OP.

Also, when's the last time you used a ranger hero?

Never. They're all terrible. The only heroes I use are Necros, Ritualists and (rarely) Monks / Paragons / Mesmers. Necros and Ritualists are head and shoulders above all other options for caster primaries right now. I don't see your point however.

PS: Yes Earth Elementalists are commonly used for warding. Warriors are commonly used for Defy Pain tanking as well. I don't see your point.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Still Number One

I get along just fine in PvE with mesmers and eles especially after the update. But I never said the game was in balance anyways, just what balance actually was. The game has never been in balance. A.net has a very bad track record on balancing. I've always been extremely critical on their ability to properly balance this game. Their performance has been absolutely terrible to put it bluntly.

Considering the OP's sentence that I was basing my point on was a quote about a certain class by the developers, I was under the assumption that the quote was made prior to prophecies as a description for the classes and what they would be able to do. In that time there wasn't Hard mode, and there weren't assassins, so I was basing my point off skills available then and classes available then. If the quote was from a more recent time when Hard mode was introduced, then yes I completely agree with you. If my assumption was correct and it was from prophecies days, then no I think my point still stands.

I don't doubt that you can clear HM with Elementalists and Mesmers. It doesn't matter however. I can clear almost all of HM with an empty skill bar. That doesn't make empty skill bars balanced, however. Don't make the "but I can do this with this therefore this isn't underpowered" argument. It's silly.

Also if you agree the game was designed so that Elementalists can deal the most damage in a single strike, then I rest my case.

PS: Mesmers deal the most damage in a single strike right now, who would've thought?

Skyy High · Jul 08, 2010, 04:33 AM // 04:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Josip

* That OP didnt state why physical damage should not be stronger?
OP stated that in thread subject already. It's not his problem people have limited comprehension abilities. Balance. That's why. Means nothing to those who don't like it though.

That is not what "balance" means. Your entire argument stems from this initial incorrect definition of "balance", which is why you're wrong. End of thread.

Ugh · Jul 08, 2010, 05:03 AM // 05:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Ugh.

Ugh, indeed.

Quote:

If you say so. Nerf the supporting abilities if you think that's best - Asuran Scan, Strength of Honour, For Great Justice, et cetera. If you do that you narrow the gap between physical damage and caster damage. Fair enough. You address the OP's concern as well.

Since physicals have very little support, nerfing their damage too much would just lead to their abandonment.

Quote:

And your point is? That ANet is loltarded? Whether ANet is loltarded or not doesn't change the discussion at hand because the manuscripts are still the closest we have to seeing how the game was intended to be.

That was to show how manuscripts are outdated and not really applicable to the game anymore... Just kidding, it was a complaint about rangers.

But kind of the first thing, too.

Quote:

For the first - no it's not. An interrupted 200 damage nuke makes a world of difference only if it's what keeps you from wiping. If you do not wipe regardless of whether the 200 damage nuke hits, then the interrupt does essentially nothing. And let me say that there are a lot of methods to keep the 200 damage nuke from wiping your party, without relying on interrupts. In fact interrupts are rather fragile a form of party defense; you can't keep all the Rodgort's Invocations away at the same time.

You can with Panic. Those silly little mobs love balling up and interrupting each other.

The usefulness of interrupting a nuke is dependent on the difficulty of the area. If you're in NKP, interrupting an imp probably isn't worth your time and beating everything with a stick is obviously faster. But, in a more difficult area, not interrupting those nukers could easily lead to some deaths or at least make it much more difficult on your backline.

Mesmers are bad in easy areas, but those don't really matter.

Quote:

For the other - there are so many more powerful ways to shut down a Monk than relying on a Mesmer. The simplest and most obvious way is to overload the Monk with damage.

Consistent interruption is faster than trying to power through heals/prot in that situation (well, depending on the area. Once again, mesmers' importance increases as difficulty increases).

Also, since monks are almost always standing next to some other casters, using something like Panic or even PI can easily prevent damage and deal it at the same time.

Quote:

Remember, by using a Mesmer and forgoing straight damage your damage output will necessarily be less. If you can hit the Monk for 300 damage a strike, you do not need the so-called "shutdown" that a Mesmer provides.

Mesmers are still more reliable and they can shutdown many targets at once, even when H/Hing.

Quote:

Other alternatives - use skills that not only shut down the Monk, but also deal damage. Skills like "You Move Like A Dwarf!" or Great Dwarf Weapon can completely shut down a Monk and deal damage with it.

This is true (well, not really YMLaD). I was thinking with an H/H mindset, so I was ignoring things like GDW. A mes would still be more reliable, though.

Quote:

Never. They're all terrible. The only heroes I use are Necros, Ritualists and (rarely) Monks / Paragons / Mesmers. Necros and Ritualists are head and shoulders above all other options for caster primaries right now. I don't see your point however.

My point was to disprove your point. You tried to support the idea that mesmers are bad by stating how no one uses mesmer heroes, but that doesn't actually prove anything other than necros and rits are OP.

Quote:

PS: Yes Earth Elementalists are commonly used for warding. Warriors are commonly used for Defy Pain tanking as well. I don't see your point.

You said earth eles are bad. I said they aren't.

Warding is good still, right?

Anyways, most of your arguments seem to be based around mesmers not being able to clear easy areas as fast as physicals. Shutdown is quite helpful in hard areas.

Also, I'd still like an answer to this: Why do you guys want to turn mesmers into a brainless nuking class? If you really like mesmers, you should be happy that they're useful and their unique playstyle hasn't been forsaken.

The Drunkard · Jul 08, 2010, 05:49 AM // 05:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by NerfHerder

You basically restated everything I said in in my post. I dont know what your getting at. When you point it out, its constuctive, but when I point it out its bashing? I was just trying to say Mesmers are more effective as casters, and if you want to go melee, play a melee character(my opinion). Any caster using a scythe makes me go, WTF? anywho.

The point I was trying to make is that 3 (pve) skills can make a prof do insane amount of dps. Me/d can outdamage most caster builds (aside from AP, SoS, and MoP) by simply spamming 3 skills, and PI will shutdown. Heros will nullify most bonuses that actual melee chars have (armor/damage reduction). Why bother playing mesmer caster when you can just go melee and be more effective?

I think The Josip was trying to point out that the damage bonus that pve skills offer are way too strong when stacked. If I misread your post then I apologize.

Josip's Me/D's thread is here:
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/p...t10442017.html